A conversation with local pizza journalist Hal Klein
Hal recently wrote about the 11 best pizza shops in the Pittsburgh region
Hi there!
It’s me, your local pizza journalist Dan Tallarico. And today we have journalist-on-journalist action. This is the supreme pizza of pizza newsletters. We got it all. Cheese, assorted meats, a handful of random easy to find vegetables that hold up to heat well enough.
Hal Klein has been covering pizza in Pittsburgh for years. He’s now at the Post-Gazette where one of his first assignments was to rank the top pizza shops in the area. A herculean task. Or is it more of a Sisyphean task? Is Hal doomed to rank pizza shops for eternity? Coming so close to building the perfect list, but…there’s one obtuse shop that throws off the rankings and the whole list comes crumbling down, only to be rebuilt for the millionth time? Never allowed to rest until his task is finished…
I talked about the merits of the top 11 pizza shop lists a few weeks ago, but I had to know more about Hal. What is his perspective? What does he believe in? Who is this guy that includes the phrase “Pizza is life” in his email signature?
What follows is a transcription of a phone conversation that Hal and I had about the list, pizza, his core beliefs and the Pittsburgh pizza scene. I think you’ll learn a think or two from reading this.
Enjoy!
Interview with Pizza Enthusiast Hal Klein
Dan Tallarico: Do you agree that there is an objectively best pizza?
Hal Klein: It’s an interesting thing. It’s hard to say what is objectively the best, by nature food is subjective. People are going to disagree. Nostalgia is a really important thing, the flavor profile you like is an important thing. I think for me when constructing a guide that’s looking at what’s best it has to have a rubric. People are going to a particular pizza shop no matter what and say it’s amazing despite what style it may be.
DT: What is your Rubric? Are you following a strict set of grading criteria?
HK: The first criteria is what are they defining it as. If they’re New York or Neapolitan are they doing the best version of that style. I was born in New York, that style of pizza resonates really well. “I’m doing NY pizza,” they’ll say. Sure you are, you’re doing the work you’re doing the home work to make it authentic. Slice of New York is getting to that point. They’re so on the road, if I do that list in a year or two they’ll be on it. This will be a living list, it’ll update eventually.
For me it’s the dough and the crust that is so important. If you don’t have a good base it’s worthless. Everywhere on this list has good dough, it’s really good.
DT: Your list leans towards the newer shops which goes to show how much Pittsburgh has progressed. Why the newer places rocking the list?
HK: There are probably a lot of pizza places in the last 10 years making money and holding steady, a lot of places that have opened in the last few years have been making amazing pizza and trying new things. They say the pizza here isn’t up to the standard I want.
DT: Is part of that easy access to pizza information? You can learn a lot about pizza from a few books and YouTube.
HK: The ease of people making pizza at home, it’s still expensive to get started, but not as expensive as it once was. There’s this curiosity. There’s this moment of people making pizza, thinking how do I engage with that. When you’re coming in with that standard you’re gonna create a great pizza.
DT: The DIY pizza scene is blowing up - you have Ed who’s making award winning pizza in his kitchen. How does that factor into the pizza scene?
HK: There’s a lot of people making pizza. If I made a list of above average pizza in Pittsburgh it’d be really long. You can scale production and grow if you have the ratios, the percentages of ingredients.
It’s such a great craft because part of it is math and feel, if there’s humid out you’re going to do something different to your dough.
DT: Will pizza places talk about hydration level in the near future? Is that where this is heading?
HK: That’s something I thought about when writing this story, wondering how into the weeds I go. I don’t think people will think there will be a board of “todays hydration % is”. People don’t want to think that much. My first draft was so into the weeds, it really was. But I don’t think people care about those details.
DT: At the same time though, Woodfired is posting on Instagram about how they’re upgrading their cheese to Caputo cheese and changing their dough. And I thought that was cool. I’m seeing more and more pizza shops educate customers about what makes them special.
HK: I think people are starting to know the difference, starting to understand what makes the best pizza. It’s about finding that balance. Finding a new cheese vendor is gonna help that balance for a pizza shop.
DT: You talk about nostalgia and people from Pittsburgh love Pittsburgh and everything that has to do with pizza. How does that affect your view of pizza here? Obviously you have places like Mineo’s and Aiello’s that are huge institutions here. Are you able to appreciate them?
HK: Because I didn’t grow up here Mineo’s and Aiello’s don’t have the same intrinsic draw. I can see those places, I can respect these institutions. Eating them without that perspective or memories of my grandpa taking me there, I’m just eating it at that pizza to pizza level. One of the things I saw in feedback on my article is “its new pizza” or “I’m only seeking out cool kids” but it’s not, people are doing it in a way where people. One of the oldest pizzerias in the entire state is on the list.
DT: How can anyone say that when you have Police Station Pizza on the list.
HK: So many older spots DiCarlo’s Pizza is an older one that makes the list. And also, for a long time, there weren’t other places that are doing what contemporary to what people are doing now.
DT: You’ve been in this city for a while - how long have you lived here?
HK: 12 years.
DT: Wow, that’s at the start of what I consider our pizza boom, around 2010.
HK: People just got more into food around that time. They’re really focused on making something handmade delicious, not doing stuff from a mix. Then at the same time you also get Dinette, who left Pittsburgh for a while and came back so she’s bringing influence from the Bay Area who was ahead of us in the pizza game. You’re thinking a lot about making the dough, thinking about the dough and balance is.
DT: Can you put too many toppings on a pizza? My dad and I argue about this a lot and he is known to put so many toppings on his pizza. He’ll take pizzas home then add more toppings. Is too many toppings a problem?
HK: Oh yeah 100%. Yeah, when you’re looking for balance and you put too many toppings on it. You’re gonna lose that balance.
Once you start getting to the point where there’s a meal on a pizza that’s a problem. But I used to eat pretty much like a purist, when you find that balance it’s quite delightful. Putting Woodfired on the list their dough is good, but they strike a nice balance of toppings. It’s interesting, I want to get the market special. What is your take?
DT: Well yeah, we argue about this, but I’m a topping minimalist. I’ve lately become a less cheese the better guy too. I’m really into pizza sauce lately, not sure if that’s old age or what. But I really appreciate a balanced pizza. There’s few places that do that balance of pizza well, but Driftwood’s corn and peach pizza is something I always go for. They do such a great job of balancing their specialty toppings.
DT: What’s your childhood pizza place you have nostalgia for?
HK: Amore pizza in Whitestone, Queens. It’s on the border of Whitestone and Flushing. It’s the prototypical New York slice joint to the max. It’s a local spot, neighborhood spot. It doesn’t make a lot of lists. Everyone’s best is their own best. It’s a place that’s out of the way I make a point to when I visit NY. I get a cheese slice there.
It’s one of those places that is made better by reheating the second time. In the city, Joe’s pizza was always my favorite slice. Scarrs pizza is up there.
DT: Scarrs pizza is something I built up in my head where I thought it was going to blow my mind. Like milling your own flour? That’s incredible, I had no idea what that would even taste like. Then I had the slice and it was amazing, but I expected so much more for some reason.
HK: It’s always interesting in these things, these things become mythological. The whole deal with Scarr’s is mythological. I want to make the best NY slice. I don’t know how much milling your own flour makes a difference, but they go the extra effort.
DT: What are you most excited about in the Pittsburgh Pizza scene?
HK: Just the fact that people want to get better. You look at the journey. It’s what makes me excited about Slice of New York Pizza. I think it’s that. Everyone that I talk to for this story wants to keep getting better. The older places do what they do so well, but they don’t want to cut corners. The newer places are always experimenting. Josh at Rockaway is like “Don’t just talk about my NY pizza” He’s doing all this other cool stuff he won’t stop learning.
DT: There’s such a mixture of pizza style in the city. There is no one style that defines us and that list has so many varieties. The tapestry of pizza here truly is so huge and wide.
HK: It’s cool the idea of Pittsburgh pizza is there’s so many different places and different styles.
Wow what a conversation! Thanks for taking the time to read this and huge thanks to Hal for sharing his time with me. Always a pleasure to talk to a fellow pizza journalist.
Please consider sharing or telling all your pizza friends. It’s not every day you come across a newsletter featuring two local pizza journalists. How cool is that?
Pizza ya later!
-Dan Tallarico, Pizza Journalist